Atheists Amongst Us?

[Jeff Westover]

We have been pounded the past two weeks with info from pro-and-anti atheist folks who want more coverage and highlighted information posted about the annual anti-Christmas campaigns that are sweeping the U.S.

To be candid, I have held back on reporting much of that information because I find it inconsistent that these arguments only happen in the heat of the season -- thus taking away from what should be an enjoyable time for those who celebrate.

In addition, I have a sense of a growing number of atheists amongst our numbers who celebrate Christmas secularly.

This has been a subject we have kind of danced around all year. We had a whole podcast dedicated to the sacred versus secular side of Christmas and to me it boils down to this: Christmas is celebrated both ways and we should celebrate THAT.

We have worked hard over the years to welcome as many as possible to My Merry Christmas. There are divisions in religious thought, political beliefs and even Christmas itself. But I feel we can celebrate what common ground we share.

I bristle at those who are critical of Christmas. From those who get "offended" by Christmas in stores in September (how silly) to those who can stand Christmas music in July, it just seems a bit much to me to make a big deal over.

But when Christmas is used as a tool for promotion -- from those driving political agendas to those who think a manger scene is offensive -- then I think I don't want to be part of the discussion.

What do you think?

Jeff

[GingerMel]

Man, I'm telling you...my friends on FB are a bunch of Debbie Downers about Christmas. They post all this negative stuff about how the war on Christmas is overblown and make it seem like anyone who wants people to be able to say Christmas instead of Holiday must be a serious zealot.

It bothers me a LOT when everything has to be politically correct so that no one offends anyone. What's the harm in letting kids have Christmas parties in schools? It just lets kids have fun...it doesn't incite some war on other religions. What's the harm in calling the tree outside government offices a Christmas Tree? It's an evergreen dressed up in decorations...that's a CHRISTMAS tree and we should be able to call it that. I'm not religious at all but it doesn't bother me when someone says Christmas. For me it's more about TRADITION. I love it...love the entire season and everything about it. I will defend anyone's right to say Christmas but it has nothing to do with religion, honestly.

I might get blasted for having this opinion but whatever...it's my opinion.

I don't get offended when people celebrate Christmas for religious reasons. Rather, it's the opposite...I will defend everyone's right to celebrate Christmas for any reason they want.

[Jeff Westover]

You are correct in that the political correctness is overblown.

But I think there are some fair boundaries that should be respected when it comes to religious symbols or practices in places like schools and court houses.

The word "Christmas", like it or not, is now a secular term. It isn't even much used in the Catholic church as a religious term. Our own government recognizes it as a secular term. For anyone to take offense at the word itself is just silly. But silliness seems to reign in this argument.

As for the existence of a "war on Christmas", I'm one of the majority who thinks there isn't a war on Christmas. If there is, Christmas is winning hands down.

But what's really going on is a war on religion -- and Christmas just happens to be a convenient marketing launch point for those who want to fight any mention of religion in our society. As a member of a persecuted minority religion I've fought bigotry and hate my whole life from those who shout "freedom from religion" as a right.

The Bill of Rights is absolutely clear. It is freedom OF religion, which means we're all free to believe what we wish, regardless. That to me means I don't have to take down a Nativity no matter where it is and that I don't have to remove the word "God" from our money. The Constitution forbids the government establishing a state religion. A nativity or the word God on the currency is a far cry from establishing anything close to a religion.

I am fiercely against those of the Freedom From Religion Foundation who insist there can be no sign of religion anywhere where the public sees it. That tramples on several rights. The imposition of no belief is more of establishing a state religion than putting up a Christmas tree.

Over the years the polling we've done on this matter clearly shows that the vast majority don't think there is a "war on Christmas". And it will always be that way because Christmas is so broadly defined. Some celebrate it in a sacred way. Many others do not.

The real war is on religion -- and that's a bigger topic meant for another place, and, dare I say, another season -- than Christmas.

I find it rather interesting that in the course of the past ten years that we've gone from "no nativities" to "Christmas trees" and "Santa Claus" being religious symbols by extremists who want no visible Christmas. I know there are many non-religious who would take broad exception to such silliness.

[Christmas-A-Holic]

I chose the first option, which is the way I observe Christmas, but I will celebrate it with everyone around me no matter what religion they follow or not follow.

Merry Christmas to all! cheesy

[GingerMel]

I don't think there's some serious plot out there to destroy Christmas.

When I say I think there's a bit of a war on Christmas, I just mean on using the word itself really. People are still putting up trees and celebrating like mad...
THANK GOODNESS!!!

[RadioJonD]

Jeff, your point about using this time of year to drive home a point with ultra hype, malice, and otherwise lack of compassion sums the situation nicely. In such behavior is no goodwill.

The only thing I will say about my personal opinion about political involvement from any government will be hard for some folks to accept. So be it. I'll also will NOT debate it. The sole purpose of any earthly government is to get us to Armageddon on time. All the turmoil generated by entering into areas of our lives that don't need government intervention (like Christmas) is following a schedule that is not ours to know or for most to understand. I could reference Balaam and quote scripture but I won't

I am not atheist. Whether or not I am a Christian in the eyes of the world is dependent upon the denomination/religion judging me at the time. Alas, it is not their judgment that matters. More than likely I will feel a whole lot better in the hands of just God than I feel right now in an unjust world.

Offended at others for not celebrating Christmas as I do? Not in the least! Offended when they are in my face with it? Not really. It's the way of the world as foretold long ago. I have no choice but to accept. Likewise you have no choice but to accept that I will celebrate Christmas the way I feel lead. Your words, resources and acts to dissuade my belief will have no effect.

I do find it humorous that atheists are offended enough to place adds/billboards denouncing God and scripture. If they do not believe, what's the point? Do they feel threatened? In my opinion, the ads are to appease their own conscience. By the same token, any Christian organization that would respond to anything of the kind is beyond my understanding. Do they feel threatened and does their conscience bother them too? The simple gesture of kindness and goodwill that each side professes is negated with such nonsense.

The ads/media campaign from either prospective certainly has no impact on me...not even enough to get upset if and when I see something I oppose. After all, collectively we have a schedule to keep until the appointed time we will individually have to choose or loose.

Like Jeff, I do not believe there is a war on Christmas. The root issue is well beyond one season. Christmas is just the time to showcase our prejudice and ignorance.

How is it then that we can all be together here at MMC with differing views about how to celebrate Christmas? It's the simple kindness, compassion, and goodwill illustrated by:
I chose the first option, which is the way I observe Christmas, but I will celebrate it with everyone around me no matter what religion they follow or not follow.

Merry Christmas to all! cheesyCollectively we transcend the world's trappings.

[Christmasstar]

have any of you read the blog "I'm a Christian unless you're Gay"?
http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

This blog is less about gays and more about how we treat others who we see as different from us. It is well worth the read.

I have often asked similar questions as RadioJonD, confuses me too.

Mother Teresa says it best....

People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.
Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.
In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway. -this version is credited to Mother Teresa

[Bradmac]

I chose #1. My family and I faithfully observe and celebrate the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, but we also enjoy Santa Claus. Just like we enjoy the Easter Bunny and egg hunts while celebrating the resurrection of the Lord.

I've never felt that one was mutually exculsive of the other, even though the organized atheists try hard to make it so.

You'd think their "humanist" faith would be better served helping other humans through charitable acts for those in need, rather than hateful acts against we of faith in the Lord. Oh well.

[sugar142286]

I chose #1. My family and I faithfully observe and celebrate the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, but we also enjoy Santa Claus. Just like we enjoy the Easter Bunny and egg hunts while celebrating the resurrection of the Lord.

I've never felt that one was mutually exculsive of the other, even though the organized atheists try hard to make it so.

You'd think their "humanist" faith would be better served helping other humans through charitable acts for those in need, rather than hateful acts against we of faith in the Lord. Oh well.

I think Brad said it very well here. My family and I are Catholic and try to go to church as much as possible. We're very religious and do observe Christmas and Easter for Jesus. I am bringing up my children to understand the real meaning of these holidays as well.


Not only do I see the importance with Jesus and Christmas, but I also, like Brad want my children to understand the history of Santa Claus and what the meaning is to Christmas as well. I want them to know why families get together every year, why there is so much tradition, and so on. I want them to know it all.


I chose # 1 too, but I feel there are two sides to Christmas and I want my children to know both, with Jesus the main reason for the season.

[MrsH]

I feel that I was very lucky growing up. I was raised, and still am, Catholic. My mother believed that we should not only understand our Catholic faith but learn about and understand other religions. We not only celebrated Christmas and Easter, but learned about and participated in Hanukkah and Passover. We read about other faiths and even lack of faith. I still enjoy reading about religions. It is because of how my parents raised me that I can appreciate how other's celebrate. However, tell me that I can't or shouldn't say Merry Christmas and you will get an argument from me. I am not insensitive to the fact that there are other faiths and beliefs by doing so. In fact, I chose to say "Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays", which acknowledges the fact that not everyone celebrates Christmas, yet still allows me to express MY beliefs.

I agree with Jeff that it isn't a war on Christmas, but a war on religion. As a Catholic, I often feel the sting of peoples insensitive comments about my beliefs. I don't push my beliefs on others. I choose to live by example. Yes, I am Catholic, and I'm not ashamed to say it. I do hope, without knowing my religion or beliefs, that when people think of me they think, "Kathy is a good person. She's kind, generous, and has made a positive imact on my life". I think THAT is what I want to leave as my legacy.

[frostyman]

I am Catholic now but was not raised in a church of any kind. I have to believe that there is more than just our brief existence in this life because I personally have to have some bit of hope that there is something better than the darkness of this world to look forward to. To me Christmas is a celebration of that hope. I refuse to live in darkness without any hope. I live and let live but I will not let anyone take what I believe in my heart away from me and if they choose to live without any hope then that is their choice. Merry Christmas!

[CJ498]

I voted 1, I am a Christian and hold the sacred aspect of the holiday very close to my heart, but I also enjoy the secular aspects and traditions of it as well. I respect others rights to celebrate it or not celebrate it as they see fit, as long as they do not interfere with my right to celebrate it according to my beliefs.

I love all things about Christmas both religious and secular but I will never forget the real reason for the season (for me, Jesus is the reason for the season) and I know many Christmas traditions were derived from pagan traditions.

In my mind and heart though, Linus said it best in "A Charlie Brown Christmas" when he described what Christmas is all about.

"And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, 'Fear not: for behold, I bring unto you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the City of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.' And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God, and saying, 'Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men........That's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown."

[ballcoach]

I think Jeff hit the nail on the head. It comes down to choice. That is what life is all about. This comes to you from a person who says his prayers everyday and every night. I wish all were Christians, but in reality that will never happen and I don't think anyone should be persecuted for the way they believe unless it brings harm to others.

To ME....Christmas is about celebrating Christ and that he was given to this Earth for us and our sins. Christmas is about Christian values....to me. Family, giving, caring for others, taking care of your fellow man, etc. But at the end of the day....those are values of just good people. To me...Christmas is a celebration of what is right with the world. The fact that we have a choice is what is beautiful.

[Storeytime]

First and foremost I am a Christian. Like Jon describes earlier, that may mean something different to some who see that title than what it means to me. But, the main thing is that God knows what I am and He knows my heart, which is totally fallen, but surrendered to Him. Any group of any kind will have those in that group who give its members a bad name, and we Christians sure have those like any others.

I love all aspects of Christmas. The thing my family celebrates is that God said enough is enough and He did something about it. He came into the world and gave light to darkness. My family celebrates that. But Christmas is a time of year that has so many other special meanings and celebrations, and I love them all. I like the religious side and commercial side of Christmas. I love movies like, "The Nativity" and "Jingle All the Way" and see nothing wrong with loving both parts of Christmas that those movies capture.

However. . . . . . I believe there is a war going on. Yes, it is a war against religion. But in any war, there are collateral damages. I beleive Christmas has suffered great collateral damage because of this war. We had "Christmas parties" in school going back way before my first one in 1960. How silly is it to have had something that good and wonderful and somehow, now it is damaging, hurtful, and offensive to someone to the extent that it can't be called a "Christmas party"?--- Or in some cases as in some schools in Texas, completely cancelled? It is political correctness run amok.

Wars sometimes start with dropping of bombs and they are instantly seen as wars. Other times they start with brainwashing and political correctness such as what happened during Hitler's rise to power. The real war wasn't seen until it was too late to stop it. I believe the PC that we are seeing over Christmas is just the first small shots being fired. But there is a definite intent in those shots. If nobody recognizes it for what it is and speaks up about it, then it will be similar to what happened in Hitler's Germany and we will have only ourselves to blame.

America made a definite decision to get away from the banning of Christmas that was done by some early American Christian settlers such as the Puritans. We went at Christmas full force and have never looked back until, I believe, recently.

I'm not saying that we have to defend only the Christian version of Christmas, but I am saying that we have to stand up and defend Christmas and all it stands for or before we know it, it will have disappeared as we once knew it.

[shellie12]

I beleive in celebrating christmas the way i choose and beleive others have the same right everybody to there own

People have choices in this world and everyone has the same choice

As mr scrooge said. let me keep christmas my way and you keep it your way

[Maureen]

I don't know what to say, to be honest. I just feel I should own up to one of the votes for number 3

I try to be a good person. I do what my conscience advises. I know the difference between right and wrong and like to think that I tread an honourable path. I'm - with a few exceptions - nice to kids and old people! I'm a great believer in live and let live and provided nobody is hurt in any way, shape or form, do what you have to do. Life is too short to be judgemental.

I'm uncomfortable with full on religion. I literally feel myself squirm when there is a surfeit of it. I don't have to be spouting about it all the time to make me feel better about myself or to feel sorry for or feel my duty in life is to "save" those who have fallen by the wayside and by that, meaning those who don't see or feel things the same way I do. The more someone pushes religion, the further I pull back. I'm not an atheist; agnostic is probably closer. I believe in a higher power - I just don't know what it is. I've got an open mind and will weigh up all sides. It's not black and white. I'm right and you're wrong. It depends on your geography, social interactions, upbringing and education as to "who is right"

Christmas is a time for celebration for whatever reason you choose. The majority of people use it as a joyous recognition of the birth of Christ. A vast number of people regard it as a 2 week break away from work and school. They don't need a reason other than they're off and they're delighted about it!

I don't care WHY people are happy and celebrating, I'm just glad, for whatever reason, they are. At the end of the day, what eventually happens to you is in your own hands, not in the hands of others and just because you tell people that what you believe is right, doesn't make it so - it's what your heart and manner say.

I'd also like to say I have the utmost respect and admiration for anybody who believes in their religion so strongly. It must be wonderful to have that in your life.

[Christmasstar]

forgot to say how I voted...

It is a completely religious and sacred thing to me.
I privately observe religious elements of Christmas but accept differing thoughts about it.
I lean a little more to the secular side but tolerate those who make it a religious event.
I am atheist and I observe Christmas for non-religious or sentimental reasons.

none of the above
but a mix of them
Christmas to me is first of all the celebration of Christs birth.(something I am not private about)
I also along with my family enjoy all aspects of the decorating, Santa, parties, learning about how others celebrate and accepting others traditions.
In my family we have a humanist, pentecostal, Baptist, those who do not attend any church, a gay couple, a couple of divorcees, and a 81 year old lady who we all call Mom or Oma. We live from one coast to the other in Canada and the states. We have an adopted niece from Korea, a surrogate mom waiting to give a couple a wonderful gift. We also have an artist, a couple in fact, university professor, teacher, truck driver, electrician, secretary, students, factory workers, construction worker etc.
We would be truly foolish if we were not accepting of our family and loved them unconditionally.
How can we do less for those we do not know?

[rodmonster]

Sorry folks.. i LOVE Santa, Charlie Brown, Frosty, The Grinch... and trying NOT to shoot my eye out! I love ALL of my decorations and 8 trees in my house (YES 8!)
=)
LOVE IT!
But in the end - Christmas is about Christ - PERIOD!
I don't budge on this one... and never will..
I refuse to die and show up in Heaven and stand before God and say... well.. i kinda did what you wanted.... I kinda celebrated your sons birthday... after i opened all my presents and ate all my turkey..... um ... yeah right after i watched a Christmas Special....
Nope... not happening...
Jesus is the Reason for the Season... the rest is just side fun.....

As for the war - folks - its real - and its growing... I live in the DC area.... It is PC nightmare up here year round.... and worst by far at this time of year....

Its on the billboards, on the news, on city buses (yes huge anti Christmas ads), EVERYWHERE!

If you don't stand up for your religous rights - guess what.. they go away....

Be strong this season...
And God Bless Us One and ALL!!

[GingerMel]

People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.
Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.
In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway. -this version is credited to Mother Teresa

I love this. It's the way I live, even though I am not religious.

I think you should do good...for the sake of doing good.
You should be kind...for the sake of being kind.
You should be be honest...even when you know other people are not and may take advantage of you.

You should hold your head up and try to do right in this world no matter if you live with religion or just morality.

[RachRon]

As a practicing Catholic I voted #1 after all Christmas to me is about the birth of Christ.That being said I also enjoy all the other stuff that goes along with the secular side of the holiday.That means on Christmas Eve I will be at Midnight Mass but making sure my daughter gets to bed rite after so Santa will come.I do however think there is certainly a "war on Religion"

[lauriebear]

I have read all the post up to Rod’s. And while they brought choking emotions to me, fire, sadness, anger, happiness, pride, compassion, yes all these rose up in me as I read. How simple it would be if we really could live in peace and harmony, like the old 70’s Coke commercials, I guess you younger ones won’t really know about it. You older ones like me you know… A bunch of young kids on a hill top singing… “I’d like to buy the world a home and furnish it with love grow apple trees and honey bees and snow white turtle doves, I’d like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony I’d like to buy the world a Coke and keep it company…”
While this is just a commercial it sure resonates with me. Why can’t we after all these years respect one another? Why is it necessary for one to think it is OK to mock another on a billboard is it like some of you stated, that they have fear? Maybe they fear themselves? I don’t know what it is. Although I agree that the war is on religion not per say Christmas. I never could understand why Atheist’s choose Christmas as a Christian I feel that Easter is our most Sacred time of the year far more so then Christmas, at least for me and the Church I attend. I am a Methodist. I do not hide it. When someone sneezes in my presence I say God Bless You. I do say when someone does something nice for me Bless you and your kindness. I say Merry Christmas. Never once have I been told that offended anyone. In fact I at times even get told Thank you after I say something like this.
I help with Meals On Wheels, over the years I have went to many homes, funny not one person who is “down” on their luck ever seems to forget God, in fact they seem more in tune with him. So are they really “down”. It sure makes me wonder, makes me think. I had this one woman God rest her soul. She was Jewish, lived through the Holocaust, the stories she told me well now is not the time or place. She would also tell me about times so far lost. I once said to her (before I knew she was Jewish) Merry Christmas, Mrs. M, where is your tree, want me to help you put it up? That 1st year I had no idea she was Jewish, I gave her a Christmas Card, I felt bad she had no tree so I got her a little tree, and brought her Christmas Cookies, she told me that was one of her best Holidays ever, of course you can imagine my embarrassment to find out she was Jewish, I apologized and just felt awful, she said L, do not apologize, I learned more about Christmas this year then my last 80 years, and now I want to know more, you taught me you are never too old to learn, and only though learning can we respect and understand each other’s faith. I love that, I have kept that with me.
I guess what I am saying is I do believe that if we do not stand up for what we believe in then the ones who shout loudest will drowned out the ones who keep quite. I will not keep quiet, I will always proudly say I am a Christian, I believe in God, I believe he gave us his only son and that son died for me. I will say Merry Christmas, I will say God Bless, but as I learned from Mrs. M, I will always respect others their right to believe and worship in their way. I will always try to understand and learn other’s beliefs, that is what will help me to understand. But, I will not and won’t tolerate anyone who denounces God and my religion in front of me. I am very understanding, I will tolerate a lot, but please do not offend me to hurt me just because I believe, and that is my stand.
My first 14 years of life I grew up not know God or Jesus, I often think that is why it was so awful, with nothing to hope for, no light, well if you believe in nothing then really you have nothing, and I know I lived it. Now, after that I lived with my Nana, I learned who God was, I mean really learned, I went to Church, and I was in a place that ruled by love, understanding, hope… I learned so much over the next few years. I learned compassion goes so much further then hate and anger. I learned how to love and what it really was. I owe so much to the simple tap of Judges Gravel that sent me from a living Hell into the loving arms of my Nana. That judge I believe was guided by God, he knew I was at the end of my rope and he saved me in every way a person can be saved. Yes, I believe and I will also respect others beliefs.
I do not care why you celebrate Christmas just so long as you do celebrate. So long as you do not care why I celebrate Christmas.
God Bless and Merry Christmas, L

[Jeff Westover]

Very interesting comments.

Perhaps I'm too biased seeing my position here. I just think Christmas should be celebrated on an individual basis. If there was something I could do to make the atheists/non-religious feel more welcome to not only come here but to be active and out front amongst us in celebrating Christmas, I would do it.

In my private conversations (and I have a few each season) I know there are folks out there who don't want to come to a place like MMC and out themselves because they feel they will either be hounded or harassed for their views and choices. That's a sad fact I hope we can overcome.

I believe Christmas should be celebrated amongst us all -- regardless of where we're coming from. I would hope all would feel welcome.

So far, I'm not seeing too many of the non-religious surfacing here.

And I understand.

[YellowSnow]

I voted yesterday; but was leery to post in the thread. I voted #3 and after reading Maureen's post, it gave me the courage to do so.
I consider myself an agnostic, though very religious folks would probably consider me an atheist if I explained my thoughts and feelings.
I'm not going to type all of that out here; but, I have no problems with people saying Merry Christmas, or schools singing carols or having Christmas parties. There is no war with me on the subject. I truly respect everyone's right to their own beliefs and opinions on everything. There are things I feel strongly about, but I would never even get in an argument about this, because I don't expect anyone else in this world to think just like me.
There is definitely a LOT of history and tradition about Christmas that comes from the religious side of the holiday and I respect that and have no problems with any of it. In fact I embrace it all, yet celebrate in my own way.
That's it for me right now...

Respect to all,
YS

[kelly ann]

As many of you know, I have been here on MMC for four years. I am not religious but then again I am not completely an atheist, I accept science too and uh hum, is interested in Paganism but I will never impose my views on anyone.
I accept the fact that we are all here on MMC to celebrate a wonderful time of the year. We all celebrate it for many reasons, just like how we all have many traditions throughout the world. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Live and let live I say. I don't care what your religion is, as long as you dont force it down my throat we can all be great friends because at the end of the day, it's our differences which make us unique.

[Bradmac]

I voted yesterday; but was leery to post in the thread. I voted #3 and after reading Maureen's post, it gave me the courage to do so.
I consider myself an agnostic, though very religious folks would probably consider me an atheist if I explained my thoughts and feelings.
I'm not going to type all of that out here; but, I have no problems with people saying Merry Christmas, or schools singing carols or having Christmas parties. There is no war with me on the subject. I truly respect everyone's right to their own beliefs and opinions on everything. There are things I feel strongly about, but I would never even get in an argument about this, because I don't expect anyone else in this world to think just like me.
There is definitely a LOT of history and tradition about Christmas that comes from the religious side of the holiday and I respect that and have no problems with any of it. In fact I embrace it all, yet celebrate in my own way.
That's it for me right now...

Respect to all,
YS
And there is the answer I hoped for. Of course it's absolutely fine to believe, doubt or disbelieve as you see fit. It is certainly the business only of the individual. I'm sorry you were concerned about posting here; please don't be in the future!

We all love Christmastime for our own reasons, and I don't think anyone here would ridicule you, or even think less of you, just because you have a different idea about how to celebrate the season.

The only problem I have is with those non-believers who have to be vocal about it. It's ok if they don't want to participate, but they don't have to attack those of us who are not as enlightened as they.

Respect right back atcha, YS! cheesy

[Jeff Westover]

I think it is incredibly intimidating to hear some emphatically say "Jesus is the Reason for the Season"....and then be here and not feel that way. I feel for those folks who want to celebrate Christmas in their way here in the face of that. I want everyone to not only BE welcome but to FEEL welcomed as well.

We cannot escape the obvious connections of Christmas to religious elements. Neither can we escape those pagan elements and roots either. There is room for both. The unknown is not in the content we forward...it is in the community we keep.

I have learned -- I should say, I have had to learn -- the Christmas is bigger than my way of looking at it. I have a very spiritual connection to Christmas, one that I don't think even many of the religious here can relate to. And that's not a slam. It is just very personal.

That personal Christmas, at least in my case, is expanded upon by those amongst us here who either privately or bravely in the public areas share what it means to them.

I applaud the honesty and candid comments posted by those who feel in the minority but who usually feel they can't talk about it.

[Billy Battles]

As many on here know I am Agnostic. I chose #4 only because of the wording. I like many other "non-believers" on here fully understand and support the Religious side of Christmas. I may not celebrate for Religious reasons, but I understand that the Holiday is rooted in Religion. I could care less about people having a Christmas tree(or the 10 Commandments) on Government property. I don't agree with any Religion in public schools. Christmas for me is a time of "Magic", Love, Family, and Giving.


If Jesus is your "Reason for the Season" then enjoy. If someone says "Happy Holidays" don't feel slighted that includes Christmas. I personally say Merry Christmas, I don't feel that saying Happy Holidays is trying not to offend people. I feel it is trying to include people. Either way Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. I hope everyone is having a wonderful Christmas season.

[Jeff Westover]

Years ago when I lived in California we had a good neighbor, an agnostic, who just went crazy with the lights. I grew up in his neighborhood and it was our tradition every Christmas to go look at his new additions each year and my Dad would write him a check to help pay for the electric bill just because we enjoyed what he did. We developed a warm relationship with him that was renewed yearly as we would visit his yard.

He was interviewed on TV when someone accused him of promoting Christ too much.

Of course, as they interviewed him and he told them he was agnostic, you could hear the gasps of those of us watching him get interviewed. It totally took the wind out of the complaint and the reporter was absolutely beside himself because he actually had a story (he thought).

I'll never forget what he said, though. He said he put up the lights for one reason and that was for the smiles of the kids and the love between neighbors. We all applauded.

If that's not Christmas, I don't know what is and it has always inspired me.

[justme324]

Sorry folks.. i LOVE Santa, Charlie Brown, Frosty, The Grinch... and trying NOT to shoot my eye out! I love ALL of my decorations and 8 trees in my house (YES 8!)
=)
LOVE IT!
But in the end - Christmas is about Christ - PERIOD!
I don't budge on this one... and never will..
I refuse to die and show up in Heaven and stand before God and say... well.. i kinda did what you wanted.... I kinda celebrated your sons birthday... after i opened all my presents and ate all my turkey..... um ... yeah right after i watched a Christmas Special....
Nope... not happening...
Jesus is the Reason for the Season... the rest is just side fun.....

As for the war - folks - its real - and its growing... I live in the DC area.... It is PC nightmare up here year round.... and worst by far at this time of year....

Its on the billboards, on the news, on city buses (yes huge anti Christmas ads), EVERYWHERE!

If you don't stand up for your religous rights - guess what.. they go away....

Be strong this season...
And God Bless Us One and ALL!!

Very well said Rod. :)

[Jeff Westover]

So...what do you think? Should our sites be passing forward the coverage of all the PC arguments, the debates, etc that seem to be erupting in places like Washington DC, Texas and Arkansas this week?

Or should we just leave that buried in the media?

I've been torn on the issue because I don't think those stores are constructive or helping to solve anything.

[mgramsey]

I voted 1. For our family, Christmas is all about Christ. Without the birth of Christ, there would be nothing to celebrate. Although we know Jesus was most likely not born on December 25, it is the day the Church has selected to celebrate it. The Christmas season affords Christians a tremendous opportunity to tell the good news of Christ.

Our family certainly enjoys some of the secular aspects of Christmas. It is easily our favorite time of the year. We try not to judge unbelievers but do pray that someday they will come to the Truth. We can never argue someone into accepting Christ. Instead we must model the Christian life and let the Holy Spirit do his work.

Merry Christmas everyone.

[mgramsey]

So...what do you think? Should our sites be passing forward the coverage of all the PC arguments, the debates, etc that seem to be erupting in places like Washington DC, Texas and Arkansas this week?

Or should we just leave that buried in the media?

I've been torn on the issue because I don't think those stores are constructive or helping to solve anything.
I say leave them buried in the media. We need to be inviting to everyone. Hopefully non-believers will see how believers treat each other here and will be attracted to the love of Christ.

[lauriebear]

I voted 1. For our family, Christmas is all about Christ. Without the birth of Christ, there would be nothing to celebrate. Although we know Jesus was most likely not born on December 25, it is the day the Church has selected to celebrate it. The Christmas season affords Christians a tremendous opportunity to tell the good news of Christ.

Our family certainly enjoys some of the secular aspects of Christmas. It is easily our favorite time of the year. We try not to judge unbelievers but do pray that someday they will come to the Truth. We can never argue someone into accepting Christ. Instead we must model the Christian life and let the Holy Spirit do his work.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Thank you :)

[RadioJonD]

So...what do you think? Should our sites be passing forward the coverage of all the PC arguments, the debates, etc that seem to be erupting in places like Washington DC, Texas and Arkansas this week?

Or should we just leave that buried in the media?

I've been torn on the issue because I don't think those stores are constructive or helping to solve anything.We do have the "Christmas in the News" section. And these stories do make the news.

Though they do kind of get old, I think they belong in the news section. Like all areas/threads no one has to read them.

As long as we all understand that nothing will ever be resolved in the stories, no one gets hurt. However, the biggest thing to understand and remember though is that if any of the stuff torques your nerve, simply don't open and read in the first place!

[Maureen]

..........and I'm squirming!

In answer to Jeff's question, I think we should leave it out there. We touch enough on it to show that we aren't burying our heads in the sand but the worst of it we can leave to the media.

[made582]

I answered number 2. All of my family are Christians but I'm the only one that goes to church some what regularly. So that leads are celebration to slant towards the secular side. I was also engaged to a Muslim. So I would like to think that I am open to all sides of the argument.

[MrsH]

So...what do you think? Should our sites be passing forward the coverage of all the PC arguments, the debates, etc that seem to be erupting in places like Washington DC, Texas and Arkansas this week?

Or should we just leave that buried in the media?

I've been torn on the issue because I don't think those stores are constructive or helping to solve anything.

I say leave it buried in the media. I come here BECAUSE we all celebrate Christmas together...and for that reason only. I believe that ANYONE who wants to share Christmas in peace and kindness here should be welcome, but I don't want to come here to argue religion or beliefs. IMHO - that would take the magic out of My Merry Christmas.

[Storeytime]

If I didn't say this clearly, let me say it now. I love all celebrations of Christmas. It is the very thing that I have in common with many of my friends at home and around the world.

I don't force my religious or political views on anyone. But when asked I say what I believe. I don't have any prejudices against atheists, agnostics or any other groups. Nor do I feel the need to save anybody or push them somewhere they don't want to go. I leave that up to God who is the final authority on things we, as humans, can't even comprehend.

One of my favorite documentries is one called, "The History of Christmas" which shows how far back it goes and how so much of it has very little to do with the Christian religion. I believe in honoring Jesus coming to this planet everyday, not just one, so I have no problem in loving every single bit of Christmas. But, when I say there is a war on Christmas, that is speaking of Christmas in the ways everyone of us have enjoyed it and hope to enjoy it in the future. There's nothing religious about a Christmas tree in the town square, kids decorating a tree in their classroom, exchanging presents in their annual "Christmas Party". But, things like that are being eliminated slowly, one at a time. This is not a religious fight only, it's both.

Now for the question at hand, we have a place called "Christmas Controversy" here. We've had some pretty tough debates in there before. I think I was almost banned over one, but instead ended up with two good overseas friends who educated me about some things that I was unaware of. I think it would be OK to keep this discussion going there, then if a person wants to participate they can go there. If they don't, they don't have to enter that place.

[YellowSnow]

So...what do you think? Should our sites be passing forward the coverage of all the PC arguments, the debates, etc that seem to be erupting in places like Washington DC, Texas and Arkansas this week?

Or should we just leave that buried in the media?

I've been torn on the issue because I don't think those stores are constructive or helping to solve anything.

We do have the "Christmas in the News" section. And these stories do make the news.

Though they do kind of get old, I think they belong in the news section. Like all areas/threads no one has to read them.

As long as we all understand that nothing will ever be resolved in the stories, no one gets hurt. However, the biggest thing to understand and remember though is that if any of the stuff torques your nerve, simply don't open and read in the first place!

I think the existing mix is good regarding this issue. Not ignoring it; but not keeping it in the heaviest traffic areas.
I think more of this type of exposure, on this board, would be more polarizing than anything. jmho

YS

[caninemom3]

Hello everyone,

I chose answer number two. Let me say that first of all I love God. There is not a moment in my day or night when I am not speaking to Him. I love Jesus and the Holy Spirit and also Mary, the Mother of Jesus and like others on the boards, I am a Catholic. There have been many times in my life when in the eyes of others, perhaps, I would not have been perceived as a very good Christian. I have doubts. I have questions. I have even gone as far as shaking my fist and screaming at the sky. There have been times when I thought it was all a lot of myths. No matter how I may have tried not to believe, God still calls me back to Him and tells me He loves Me just as I am. I don't know why. While I am a Christian, I still believe tolerance and love are the answers for a lot of things including those views which are very,very different from my own.

The thing I object to is anyone trying to push their beliefs or
non-beliefs on me. I once had a friend who was an atheist. He just couldn't let me alone with my faith. He was always pushing his
nonbelief on me. That gets just as tired as others going the other way. To me, Jesus does not want to be pushed on people. He wants people to come to Him themselves on their own terms, not be forced down someone's throat.

I will always stand up for Christ and Christmas. I celebrate it as the commemoration of His birth. I also respect those who do not believe yet do not try to take away our freedom to celebrate Christmas as we see fit, who just celebrate or not celebrate in their own way as they see fit. Jesus said "Love one another as I have loved you" (paraphrasing). I really believe that is what we need to try and do instead of all this fighting in the world.

Merry CHRISTmas everyone. May all have a wonderful Christmas and may all have a fantastic New Year. ((Hugs)) xo

[lauriebear]

Hello everyone,

I chose answer number two. Let me say that first of all I love God. There is not a moment in my day or night when I am not speaking to Him. I love Jesus and the Holy Spirit and also Mary, the Mother of Jesus and like others on the boards, I am a Catholic. There have been many times in my life when in the eyes of others, perhaps, I would not have been perceived as a very good Christian. I have doubts. I have questions. I have even gone as far as shaking my fist and screaming at the sky. There have been times when I thought it was all a lot of myths. No matter how I may have tried not to believe, God still calls me back to Him and tells me He loves Me just as I am. I don't know why. While I am a Christian, I still believe tolerance and love are the answers for a lot of things including those views which are very,very different from my own.

The thing I object to is anyone trying to push their beliefs or
non-beliefs on me. I once had a friend who was an atheist. He just couldn't let me alone with my faith. He was always pushing his
nonbelief on me. That gets just as tired as others going the other way. To me, Jesus does not want to be pushed on people. He wants people to come to Him themselves on their own terms, not be forced down someone's throat.

I will always stand up for Christ and Christmas. I celebrate it as the commemoration of His birth. I also respect those who do not believe yet do not try to take away our freedom to celebrate Christmas as we see fit, who just celebrate or not celebrate in their own way as they see fit. Jesus said "Love one another as I have loved you" (paraphrasing). I really believe that is what we need to try and do instead of all this fighting in the world.

Merry CHRISTmas everyone. May all have a wonderful Christmas and may all have a fantastic New Year. ((Hugs)) xo


That was so well said!!! I love how we have all expressed what we feel and if you noticed not one of us pushed our beliefs on the others. That is just one of the reasons I love these boards. We all learn so much about different ideas, beliefs, we share and we understand.

Thank you MMC!!!

[gabulldawg]

That was so well said!!! I love how we have all expressed what we feel and if you noticed not one of us pushed our beliefs on the others. That is just one of the reasons I love these boards. We all learn so much about different ideas, beliefs, we share and we understand.

Thank you MMC!!!

I have to say I agree! and that is also very well said...

As for the poll,I voted for the 1st option. I don't pretend to know all there is to know about religion,but I was raised in church and try to get to mass and services as much as possible. I have been through different phases in my life...I think it is perfectly okay to have questions about faith during ones life. I would never force my opinion on anyone else either. I say live and let live as long as you are not hurting anyone including yourself!:celebrate:

[rodmonster]

I have read all the post up to Rod’s. And while they brought choking emotions to me, fire, sadness, anger, happiness, pride, compassion, yes all these rose up in me as I read. How simple it would be if we really could live in peace and harmony, like the old 70’s Coke commercials, I guess you younger ones won’t really know about it. You older ones like me you know… A bunch of young kids on a hill top singing… “I’d like to buy the world a home L

Ahhhh - yes.. the good ol days..... i watched the commercial just the other day on one of my old VHS blocks i watch during Christmas.... loved these as a kid...

As for Jeff...
Let folks discuss at will - but i would leave it.. its too political and too harmful i think.....
We have a wide array of folks here... Right Wingers like myself (that truly does LOVE everyone!)... to the much more liberal left side.... I don't want to have to go into a knock down drag out fight at MMC... its like the one safe haven i and many others have - where folks come together for one common passion...
Lets save the rest for Rush and Oprah....
And all try to have a Merry Christmas...
LOL - Now i feel like i am on Hill Street Blues sending us all out for the day...
"Hey, let's be careful out there"...
=)

Jeff Westover][/B]
So...what do you think? Should our sites be passing forward the coverage of all the PC arguments, the debates, etc that seem to be erupting in places like Washington DC, Texas and Arkansas this week?

Or should we just leave that buried in the media?

I've been torn on the issue because I don't think those stores are constructive or helping to solve anything.L

[lauriebear]

Rod.... Yes I know how you feel too and I love how you said Rush & Oprah... Yes I do agree with your statement that this for me too is a safe haven. I love coming here and reading all the posts, and the simple joy of knowing I am not alone in my love of Christmas… I do not wish to hurt anyone here, nor do I want my feelings hurt… Let’s leave it to the outside world and I will keep this my safe haven.

Ahhhh - yes.. the good ol days..... i watched the commercial just the other day on one of my old VHS blocks i watch during Christmas.... loved these as a kid...

As for Jeff...
Let folks discuss at will - but i would leave it.. its too political and too harmful i think.....
We have a wide array of folks here... Right Wingers like myself (that truly does LOVE everyone!)... to the much more liberal left side.... I don't want to have to go into a knock down drag out fight at MMC... its like the one safe haven i and many others have - where folks come together for one common passion...
Lets save the rest for Rush and Oprah....
And all try to have a Merry Christmas...
LOL - Now i feel like i am on Hill Street Blues sending us all out for the day...
"Hey, let's be careful out there"...
=)

[/I]

[Bradmac]

Let folks discuss at will - but i would leave it.. its too political and too harmful i think.....
We have a wide array of folks here... Right Wingers like myself (that truly does LOVE everyone!)... to the much more liberal left side.... I don't want to have to go into a knock down drag out fight at MMC... its like the one safe haven i and many others have - where folks come together for one common passion...

This.

[MerryBells]

So...what do you think? Should our sites be passing forward the coverage of all the PC arguments, the debates, etc that seem to be erupting in places like Washington DC, Texas and Arkansas this week?

Or should we just leave that buried in the media?

I've been torn on the issue because I don't think those stores are constructive or helping to solve anything.

I think the balance you have right now is good. You report enough so that people are aware of what is going on, but not so much that people want to bang their head on the wall. Those that are into the political scene can then look up more information if they care to, and write to their representatives.

For myself, I am a practicing Christian, but I joined this site with the expectation that not every member would participate in my beliefs. I don't have a problem with discussing Christmas on a secular level, because that too is a valid part of Christmas. You don't have to be religious to celebrate Christmas and enjoy it, just as you don't have to be a Christian to put money in the Salvation Army buckets (or whatever Christmas time charity you like best). And hey, if you come here and talk about Christmas with us, you are likely to learn some valuable things about human nature. No matter what the media says, Christmas proves that human beings are capable of tremendous compassion and goodness, whether they are Christian or not.

[Jeff Westover]

You know, it's interesting to me looking back at how things have unfolded. Before we built these forums into the site I was posting controversial news of Christmas right here on MMC.

Back in 2002 or 2003 we realized what a hot topic is it was and set up DefendChristmas.com to archive the ongoing stories as they would roll out and we moved most of them over there.

When we built these forums we set it up so that headlines there would post here for discussion.

At the same time, readers at DefendChristmas.com can comment on any post they read. Out of all the sites we run, DefendChristmas.com gets the most comments.

And the comments we get there are fierce. Wihtout exception they are in-your-face. I can write sharply with the best of them and I'll sometimes get that way with that site because I have built a sense of what kind of response a certain type of story is going to get. Whether it is from a shake-the-fist-in-your-face pro-atheist or a hell-fire preaching religious nut I've had them all yell at me. On that site, I make no one happy because I don't beleive there is a war on Christmas and I've got issues with certain ways Christmas is handled in schools and I'd just prefer they'd stay away from it. That, for whatever reason, gets both sides mad at me and they give it to me on a regular basis. When I have to represent myself for that site on the radio I know it will ALWAYS result in contention with someone who has a bone to pick.

But what is curious to me is that most stories we import from DefendChristmas.com to MMC don't really get much attention here.

That's a credit I think to the positive nature of our little group here. I think folks come here to escape the negativity and cynicism of most the Internet and if we had such a negative influence here I'm sure you guys would be all over me to chase them out. That's just our culture on MMC.

Or so I think some want to think.....

That being said, my own observations about the tug of war at DefendChristmas.com -- and I still say that site is the most misunderstood of all the venues we operate because the media and others call us proponents of the War on Christmas which we certainly are NOT (can't they read?!!) -- is that people, regardless of what their "beliefs" are sure can't seem to get behind them without attacking someone else.

I don't care who it is. People stake their position by tearing down the other guy. Or, at a minimum, making others feel "less than" just because they haven't come to the same conclusion.

The focus then shifts -- from the reason behind an argument to the antagonism felt, conveyed or generated by an argument.

And that's where people get lost. When we're ticked or offended or otherwise put out we tend to lose all filters. We become more prideful in our own observations, less prone to be teachable or humble or just incapable of listening, sharing or exchanging.

At this time of the year I get hammered by people who are frustrated by our posting rules. We moderate posts from new members. All of you great regulars at MMC at one time had your new posts moderated too, if you recall. But people really resent that because they view the Internet and anywhere they go on it as a platform of "free speech".

Uh, I don't think so.

I'm not saying I won't let people speak their mind but I frankly just don't want trouble makers amongst us. I want folks to feel welcome but not at the expense of the peace.

But these are fine lines. When a "Christian" uses even a simple thread like this one to "share their testimony" do they really know what they are doing to others who don't see it that way or have had another experience?

This is a hard question for me to ask because I know I sometimes reference my own spirituality in my posts, blogs and articles on MMC.

And I usually know when I go too far because I will get PMs or emails calling me on it. I try to be sensitive to those things because it is in my makeup to be a peacemaker. It horrifies me to think I can offend someone. And yet I seem to do it with regularity.

I suppose that's only natural to an extent. I personally don't offend easily. But I have several close to me who wring their hands in angst over the actions or perceived thoughts of others. I don't get that, but I sure see it.

I beg of you folks, especially my well-meaning Christian friends, to carefully measure your words.

Being Christian and spreading the gospel isn't something that is ever going to be achieved through a bullhorn.

God's Spirit is a "still small voice" and that doesn't describe you or me. That's something entirely different. I beg that the shrill proclamations, some even in this thread, get toned down a lot.

"Peace on earth" means more than just the absence of total war.

[YellowSnow]

You are VERY perceptive Mr. Westover. That was a great post!
You really seem to understand what, at least some, folks feel when reading through various posts. I see truth in everthing you stated. I don't have anything to add right now, but your last post spoke volumes towards how I feel about things.

YS

[lauriebear]

"Peace on earth" means more than just the absence of total war.

Oddly enough Jeff I posted about Peace On Earth in my blog today here.

[Jeff Westover]

You are VERY perceptive Mr. Westover. That was a great post!
You really seem to understand what, at least some, folks feel when reading through various posts. I see truth in everthing you stated. I don't have anything to add right now, but your last post spoke volumes towards how I feel about things.

YS

Thank you. But to be honest I've been schooled -- and continue to be kindly educated -- by many folks who are so different than me that come to this site. And I'm not just talking about in a religious sense. As an American I have been humbled and frankly thrilled from what I've learned from folks about Christmas in other parts of the world.

The more I explore it the more I see that love, more than anything else, is really the overriding principle of Christmas. And that's a huge lesson for us, I think, as we consider our interactions with each here. Most, I think, are well intended. We're just human, that's all, and sometimes we forget.

[YellowSnow]

Thank you. But to be honest I've been schooled --


and humble too.........:mrgreen:

[MrsH]

[QUOTE=Jeff Westover;406780]

Being Christian and spreading the gospel isn't something that is ever going to be achieved through a bullhorn.

[QUOTE]

Amen Jeff! Actions speak louder than words.