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Christmas Controversy & Opinion Visit Defend Christmas.com Presented by Defend Christmas, this forum covers the difficult topics of the season -- from the famed and fabled War on Christmas to church and state debates to using the star or the angel on the Christmas tree. Modern Christmas celebration has it's complications -- schools are divided, some Christmas light displays are too much, some even argue that it is better to call it a "holiday" tree. Some merchants won't even say "Merry Christmas"! Where there is controversy, there is insanity. Even in Christmas.


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  #11  
Old 10-11-2007, 12:15 PM
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dominick dominick is offline
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Very well put, Jeff. My hat's off to you.
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  #12  
Old 10-11-2007, 01:19 PM
officepro4u officepro4u is offline
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Originally Posted by Jeff Westover View Post
Always has been? Here's what the founding fathers have to say about that:

George Washington:
"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation." June 8, 1783 in a letter to the governors of the states on disbanding the army.

Thomas Jefferson:
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

James Madison:
"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government." June 20, 1785

Thomas Jefferson:
"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." April 21, 1803 in a letter to Dr. Benjamin.

James Madison:
We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity & to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

Benjamin Franklin:
God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel -- Constitutional Convention of 1787, original manuscript of this speech.

John Adams:
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)

Now, this is what they have said and these are quotes taken from written historical documents (mostly in the hand of those who actually said them).

Perhaps that only proves that these were men of God and doesn't make that point that this country was founded on Christian principles.

Are you then suggesting that freedom of speech isn't a Christian principle? Are you saying that freedom of religion isn't a Christian principle? Are you intending to say that our republic isn't based on Christian ideals. morals and principles?

Or are you just saying that they didn't put in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, or the tax code that "this here country is Christian and only Christian?"

Please explain your broken-record contention that America wasn't founded on Christian principles, and why this always has been always will be true is your view.

I know you think that. Quit saying it...explain it!

Couldn't have said it better myself!! Good job.
Diana
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  #13  
Old 10-11-2007, 02:28 PM
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A la the Colonel Sander's Recipe, that will remain a secret. Do not ask me to spill any beans, as my so-called "broken-record explanations" are locked in the safe, and don't even ask me the combination to the safe, either, as that's a secret too.
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  #14  
Old 10-11-2007, 02:32 PM
officepro4u officepro4u is offline
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Originally Posted by gameshowguy2000 View Post
A la the Colonel Sander's Recipe, that will remain a secret. Do not ask me to spill any beans, as my so-called "broken-record explanations" are locked in the safe, and don't even ask me the combination to the safe, either, as that's a secret too.

HUH?????
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  #15  
Old 10-11-2007, 03:15 PM
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Jeff~Thank you for writing all that down. I hope you do not mind, but I copied it and plan on using it in my classroom when I finally finish my degree. I am also going to give some copies to some of my friends that are teachers. They have a couple of these in their classrooms, but not all. I think it is important to know, when studying about our founding fathers, what they believed. Just like when you study Hitler, you study his beliefs. Some people have tried to take that part out of the schools, but I will be teaching it because it is relevant to the topic.
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  #16  
Old 10-11-2007, 05:52 PM
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I do not think my thoughts came out properly. This country was founded on the belief of God by Christians and each dollar bill states "In God we trust." The only way to God is through Jesus Christ who was given to us as a gift from God which is why we celebrate his birth in the way of Christmas.
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  #17  
Old 10-11-2007, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gameshowguy2000 View Post
A la the Colonel Sander's Recipe, that will remain a secret. Do not ask me to spill any beans, as my so-called "broken-record explanations" are locked in the safe, and don't even ask me the combination to the safe, either, as that's a secret too.
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Last edited by Michael Rielly; 10-11-2007 at 07:59 PM.
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  #18  
Old 10-11-2007, 07:37 PM
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I believe that this country was founded on freedom first. I believe there isn't a one of us alive and breathing today who can realistically relate to their issues and challenges.

I believe it was their perspective and experience that drove them to debate and ultimately design the republic we live in. I believe it was profoundly based upon their abiding principles, ALL of which were based in Christian beliefs.

We cannot deny the influence of the personal spiritual beliefs of our founders. It was there and real and to this day remains as a historical fact that we need to deal with.

If a rhetorical question has to be asked it should be this: could our great democracy have been designed under any other belief system?

Answer: yes. Of course.

Has it been?

Answer: no. America is a world wonder. Only here has it happened. Many countries have used our Constitution as a model but many countries continue to fairly and rightly use their own belief systems in shaping it in their way. Iraq is only our most recent example of that. Israel is another. But as for us and our house, it was true then and it is true now: Christianity was our influence.

There's nothing to debate there. That's historical fact.

What's great about this is that our republic today can withstand the debate of diversity in spiritual thought -- that's never been done before in history. And we're at 230+ years now. You can believe who you want -- believe in nothing at all! -- and you'll be free to do so.

That doesn't mean that societal pressures don't bend or break the laws designed to protect. Discrimination still happens to those religiously inclined. I happen to live in a place that was founded by those religiously persecuted under our own Constitution. Human nature is our reality, after all, and despite our foundation and our laws people still do things wrong. But ultimately right prevails under our Constitution, sometimes it just takes some time.

So if individuals want to believe that the country was built upon a foundation of Mickey Mouse or whathaveyou, let them think that. It's not against the law to be contrary.

But it is rude to be so inflammatory and, in the perception of some, patently offensive.

To spout such absurd thinking, declare it so and then fail to support or at least exchange ideas is to make a mockery of what is sacred to some.

As the one with ultimate responsibility over this venue I need to determine what is best for the community when one comes along and disrupts things by provoking in this way. Candidly speaking, Gameshowguy2000's commentary has been brought to my attention as offensive like no other post in the history of this forum has. I have resisted, for some time, stepping in to it because I believe in the exchange of diverse opinions.

I'm all for exchanging ideas. That is what forums are all about.

But when one-way opinions are expressed and then shut down we've crossed the threshold of acceptable behavior. Oddly, in this discussion, that is dictating. The freedoms we allow are designed not to highlight our differences but rather to share them and to celebrate them peacefully.

To repeatedly make a claim -- absurd and offensive apparently in the eyes of many -- and then refuse to support it is really to become a nuisance. That detracts from the quality of our community.

In my capacity here as caretaker of the venue, I will allow the poster an opportunity to apologize for his behavior and one more opportunity to continue the exchange. But if this behavior persists I will have no choice but to take other action for the overall good of the community.

Jeff

Last edited by Jeff Westover; 10-11-2007 at 07:41 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-12-2007, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Westover View Post
I believe that this country was founded on freedom first.

Yes this may be true however it was not founded on Freedom for everyone. Financial gain was also a big part.



As for the religious part of this discussion, I believe Christianity had a huge part in the making of America.
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  #20  
Old 10-12-2007, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Billy Battles View Post
Yes this may be true however it was not founded on Freedom for everyone. Financial gain was also a big part.
Absolutely correct. And boy -- have we paid a big price for that. Our founders were FAR from perfect.
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